To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate?? That is the discussion.
There's a new book about vaccines that will be coming out in a few weeks called The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child by Robert Sears. That's one of the sons of the infamous "Dr. Sears." And because I am so lucky I get to go to the La Leche League of NC Area Conference where Dr. Robert Sears will be speaking about his new book as well as Attachment Parenting. There will be a dinner with him and a book-signing as well. I am so interested in the Sears approach to vaccines. I have almost all of the Sears' Library for Parenting. This comes at the perfect time too, because I am trying to decide what to do about conintuing or not continuing to vaccinate. I am so excited! You can pre-order this book on Amazon is you are interested in reading it. What about you? Do you vaccinate? Did you begin vaccinating and then decide to stop? At what point? Did you get a hard time from your Hubby, MIL, School or Pediatrician?
41 Talk to me here!:
When Dan and I have kids, we're not going to use the vaccines that are made with the cell lines of aborted fetuses.
Other than that, game on.
We delayed vaxes until 6 months and are doing an extended schedule (meaning he doesn't get 3 or 4 shots at a time). EJ is incredibly healthy. We did a lot of research and decided the risks from the vaccines were far outweighed by the gravity of the diseases that they prevent.
How wonderful! What a great opportunity! We no longer vaccinate our older boys and Gray is unvaxxed. Hubby is 100% in agreement. We've thankfully never encountered any problems with our decision at the doctor's office or at school!
Steph
Hi! I found your blog through my sister's and had to get involved in the discussion because it is near and dear to my heart.
My approach has been to research like crazy... and then ultimately go with my gut.
DD#1 I selectively vaxed. (No HepB or Varicella - and won't be doing HPV!) However, I always sign the papers for school (sign waivers) as if she's never been vaxed because I don't want any bureaucracies involved in my decision making.
DD#2 has had one DTaP and that's it - and I didn't get that one until she was over 18 mo. I just knew something was different, with her and have been very uncomfortable with interfering with her immune system. She's highly reactive to fragrances, has weird allergies, and we can't seem to go anywhere kids gather without her getting sick with crazy-high fevers. I'm thankful I was more cautious.
Now I'm pg with #3. I haven't decided about vaxing one way or another (except that I'm sure I'll still be selective, if we do vax). We'll see what feels/seems right when the time comes.
I love love love Covey and Justin's approach. Families who are uncomfortable with the idea of forgetting shots altogether STILL HAVE SO MANY OPTIONS! Parents have the right to choose which vaccines go to which child at what ages. The answer will be different for every family, and that's GOOD! The problem is not necessarily with the shots per se; some little immune systems will be just fine with the American vaccine schedule. But some will not, and the "one size fits all" approach to nationwide vaccination IS F L A W E D!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations to parents who take that so seriously that they're willing to research and then customize a plan that works for their family:)
There's a site at www.909shot.com that is the home to the National Vaccination Information Center. There are 8 questions to ask yourself concerning your family that I've found helpful!
We aren't vaxxing Popeye at all, and are discontinuing any boosters for the girls. I haven't had any problems yet, of course my MIL doesn't know!! haha. the dr's office gives us a little speech each visit, but that's it. It's our choice, and they have to respect that!
Both my boys were vaxxed when they were babies. That was it. We haven't had any problems. Hubby and I agree. MIL doesn't know... otherwise there probably would be a problem. And since we home school, there won't be an issue there either!
Love your blog by the way!
Unfortunately I hadnt come to a comfortable decision when grant was finally born. We did NOT do Hep B and then we delayed and moderated DTaP, IPV & Hib. I never let him have more than 2 shots at a time. He will NOT be getting a MMR or Prevnar or anything else as far as I am concerned. Sometimes I feel guilty for giving him the shots he has had. Othertimes Im concerned for what he has already had! Obviously I have still not come to a decision. Although I do believe parents should be actively involved in their children's vaccination schedule and not just let their Drs decide for them. Remember...that Drs are generally bought and sold by pharmaceutical companies. Its not always about whats best for us...but about whats best for the Drs. And what a booming business vaccs are considering that they are "mandatory". They are toxic coctails (ever read the ingredients) not to mention many have human diploid cells (from aborted fetuses). Its just a mess. Does is concern anyone that the # of vaccs are mulitplying so rapidly? When is it too much? Grant is not getting anymore vaccs...and mind you he is in daycare.
a friend of mine is reviewing this book for attachment parenting international. i'm excited to hear more about it. :)
i'm totally jealous that you will be at a conference w/ dr. sears. that's wonderful.
we did/do delayed/selective vaxing with ava (starting at 12 mos). no plans to do any so far with julian.
Time for Grandpa to chime in. I want every one of my 7 grandchildren, including Zoe, Xander and Zach, to be fully vaccinated. Here's why.
When I was growing up in the '50's I lived in deathly fear of the 2 remaining chidhood plagues: Polio and Tuberculosis. I have vivid memories of willingly lining up for our annual gamma globulin shot (hurt like hell) as a way to reduce the liklihood of getting polio which every year seemed to strike down at least one of my friends. Then, if they survived, they were left with lifelong paralysis and/or withered limbs. When the Salk vaccine came along in 1956 I was never so glad to get a shot in my life!
As for TB, in 1954 my brother and sister both came down with it and had to spend six months in isolation at Fitz Simmons Hospital in Colorado, a thousand miles from home. Fortunately there was a brand new treatment available and we considered it a miracle when they came home cured. To this day, I test positive for TB as I still carry the antibodies from that exposure.
Before vaccines, parents in the United States could expect that every year:
* Polio would paralyze 10,000 children.
* Rubella (German measles) would cause birth defects and mental retardation in as many as 20,000 newborns.
* Measles would infect about 4 million children, killing 3,000.
* Diphtheria would be one of the most common causes of death in school-aged children.
* A bacterium called Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) would cause meningitis in 15,000 children, leaving many with permanent brain damage.
* Pertussis (whooping cough) would kill thousands of infants.
Vaccines have reduced and, in some cases, eliminated diseases that killed or severely disabled people just a couple of generations ago. Because vaccines are given to people who are not sick, they are held to the highest standards of safety. As a result, they are among
the safest things we put into our bodies.
Check out http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=81901 for lots of really good info on vaccinations.
And although there have been reports and suspicion of vaccines causing autism autism, hyperactivity, developmental delay, ADD, diabetes, and SIDS among others, not one scientific study has shown any linkage...NOT ONE! This is an urban legend that puts all of us at risk of becoming victims of some future plague triggered by someone whose parents avoided getting their child vaccinated for fear of autism.
Talk about National Security? One of the most real and awful threats we face today is that terrorists may use a biological attack taht would make September 11th look like childs play. This nation's future, its national security, the safety of its healthcare institutions, and the safety of its citizens depends upon vaccination. It is way past time that message got heard by parents, teachers, nurses, doctors, hospital administrators, the media and politicians. If there has been a more harmful urban legend circulating in our society than the vaccine-autism link, it is hard to know what it might be. At a time when vaccines may be our last best hope in facing some of the greatest challenges we and our children face, this legend needs to be put to rest. Vaccination, not vaccine-bashing, is what this nation needs.
I thought Sears was provaccine???
I did vaccinate, but now we have a vaccine injured child. And I really don't care what grandparents say, my child would not be injured if I had not vaccinated, and my children who are not vaccinated are not getting horrible diseases. They can get vaccinated when they are not growing a brain. If adults would stay vaccinated, our children would not have the problems with the diseases. But the problem is that we vaccinate our kids, they are getting more and more diseases and other health issues, INCLUDING autism (research autism in communities that do not vaccinate, you cannot be blind), but they grow out of the immunity but do not get revaxed as adults.
Start with the late teens and go from there. We'll see a turn around in these health issues, like autism, diabetes, learning disabilities, anger/rages. And I have done a lot more research than most parents and grandparents. I wrote all my college papers that I could about immunizations and mercury and injuries. And I live the nightmare.
My husband did not agree with me, but he came around. And now he would be furious if I vaccinated one of our children.
Hi Cutie Pie,
It is indeed unfortunate that you have a vaccine injured child. What type of injury. Side effects and risks have always been there and you have to weigh the risk of vaccinating vs. not vaccinating.
There is a risk that if you put your child in a seatbelt, you might drive off a bridge and be unable to release them to keep them from drowning. It's just that the risk of NOT using a seatbelt greatly outweighs the risk of using them.
You have not cited any studies that back up your allegation of any link between vaccines and autism, et. al. As for mercury, it has been used in any type of vaccines in decades so where is the link there?
It sounds to me like you are perpetuating an urban legend based on your anecdotal (but no less real) evidence.
I think that's the point, that each parent has to decide if vaccinating their child is worth the risk to them. There is a lot of evidence on both sides of the camp. If it were me and I had a child that was injured I don't think that I would need any other studies to back up my feelings.
I asked QTPie the same question, what type of injury? I will let her expand on that if she so chooses, but many parents are finding out that when they go through a mercury detox that their children's symptoms improve.
Also, it was not decades ago that mercury was taken out of vaccines. From the sites I just read a moment ago, it was 1999, but even up until 2002 some batches were found to still contain mercury. Also, the flu shot still contains thermasil as well. How many parents even know that there is mercury in the flu shot?
That's the point here. Educate yourself. I love the site that Jenny mentioned above because it breaks down the debate shot-by-shot to give you the info that you need to decide if each individual shot is right for your family.
Actually I have a lot of links and proof. My point was that it needs to be a parents decision, not grandparents or doctors. And mercury is still used in vaccines for humans. Every. Single. Day. I tried 2 years ago to get a mercury free tetnus shot for my 16yo and the clinic absolutely refused to give him one, they said they only give out the mercury free ones to infancts. Mercury is always used in flu shots, even for infants. Mercury also has not been gone for decades, it was only requested to be removed in 2000, it isn't even mandatory yet.
Speaking of disaster preparedness, one of the doctors who is on the council for disaster preparedness for our country advices parents NOT to vaccinate their children until they are 2, and then one shot at a time with a long spread between them. http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html
All, and I mean every single one, of the studies that are published refuting the link between autism and mercury are tainted by the people paying for or conducting it. There is not one study that was done by someone who does not make money from the immunizations. You cannot trust those studies. The unbiased studies that med journals refuse to publish because they will lose money say there is a link.
Autism did not exist anywhere until mercury was put in immunizations. And then it was an exclusively US disease until mercury was used in other countries. Amazingly, it takes 4 years to diagnose autism, and it first appeared 4 years after mercury was introduced.
Why are there 3 Amish kids with autism? 2 were immunized before being adopted, one was linked to mercury from a coal plant. There are not other cases. Why do we have 165 cases per 1000, and they have virtually 1 in a 700,000? (http://www.mercola.com/2005/jun/7/amish_autism.htm) They do not immunize. Why aren't their kids getting diabetes left and right? Why do they not have learning disabilities out the whazoo? Why are they not all allergic to milk, wheat, dyes, everything under the sun?
If you were really, really willing to look past a long ago fear, you would see that the amount of people who were injured or died from disease is much less than the people injured from vaccines.
You may say it is polio injuries are worse. I beg to differ. I worked as a PCA and had to take care of injured men from vaccines, proven injuries from vaccines, who can't walk, talk, use the toillette, grow past the age of 2 mentally. That is happening at much higher rates than you know.
Now, if people were vaccinated after the brains were developed, the diseases would still be kept under control, but children would not be going through these massive problems. Which don't happen to exist in countries that do not vaccinate until age 4.
If those are true, why would anyone believe that vaccines are not causing these problems? It is a well documented fact about the Amish and about Japan that they do not have Autism or SIDS or rampant diabetes or out of control allergies. And it is well documented that they do not vaccinate infants and children.
I can link you up with congressional record that mercury was legally forced from animal vaccines becuase of these very symptoms, but they are only suggested to be removed from human vaccines. http://www.aapsonline.org/vaccines/mercinmed.pdf
Ruebella is ONLY dangerous to immunocompromised people and fetuses. The only people who need the shots are the ones at risk and the women of childbearing age who have not had it. Men never need it outside of a compromised system. Immunize the right people and stop injuring our children.
I understand the fears of yesteryears. I do. But today's fears are much different. And immunizations have their place, but not in my infants.
Parents need to know the truth, and grandparents need to let parents parent. So do doctors and the government, because parents are the ones who have to live with the choice of injuring their child with poison or their child possibly contracting a disease. You have to be able to live with yourself as a parent. Grandparents had their chance, now let the parents do their job as they follow what their heart and God tells them to do.
On top of all that, if doctors and pharmecuetical agents really believe this is safe, why is there a standing offer (since Jan. 2001)by Jack Doubleday of over $100,000 to drink a weight calibrated cocktail of the ingredients injected in a child? Doctors have a lot of debt from med school. Why aren't they jumping on this? They KNOW that formeldehyde and antifreeze and mercury are poisonous and they are not about to put it in their bodies. http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm
With just that small bit of information, I chose not to immunize again. Throw in the measles showing up in 100% immunized communities because vaccines to don't completely work, and its a done deal for me.
I definitely believe every parent should make their own decisions. And do the research. With my first two I didn't really know a lot about vaccinating, other than the fact that everyone did it. When I had Xander I had some friends that delayed or didn't do vaccines and it got me thinking. We do a delayed schedule. And opt out of some of the "non required" vaccines. I do believe that there are MANY more vaccines now than there were when we were children. I believe this has something to do with all of the problems. I also believe that vaccines are done across the board for children based on age, not on weight. Having a VERY small 15 month old makes me wonder if the vaccines would be too much for her because they are normally given to much bigger children. We opt out of the chicken pox vaccine (we chose pox parties) bc I don't think it's going to last until adulthood. And I worry that my children won't get a booster when they are older and then they'll get pox as an adult. We also don't allow more than 2 shots at a visit. Even if they are spaced out a month apart I feel that it's better. And I won't allow the MMR on Jocelyn until she's bigger. She weighs what a normal 9 month old weighs and I just don't want to take that risk. She may have to wait until she's 3. She will get it, but when she weighs closer to what the average 18 month old weighs.
I just want to pipe in here again to say that vaccines today are not made up of the same stuff as in days before, and there are many, many more of these vaccines given to small children.
Make the ingredients SAFE. How do we know (and no one DOES KNOW) if what is in the vaccines is not worse than the disease it's supposedly preventing? Unfortunately, the vaccinated children today are the guinea pigs at this time. That is fact.
Steph
"All, and I mean every single one, of the studies that are published refuting the link between autism and mercury are tainted by the people paying for or conducting it. There is not one study that was done by someone who does not make money from the immunizations. You cannot trust those studies. The unbiased studies that med journals refuse to publish because they will lose money say there is a link."
Do you understand the implication of stating that EVERY SINGLE scientific study that disagrees with you is tainted? And that the ones who DO agree with you just aren't published because the medical community will lose money? You're claiming that there's some sort of widespread underground society of doctors controlling EVERY MEDICAL JOURNAL IN THE WORLD who are FALSIFYING SCIENTIFIC DATA in order to pad their wallets, and that they're COVERING UP the supposed dangers of these poisons they're injecting into everyone's children! I'm sorry, that's absolutely ludicrous. Medical journals exist for a reason. They publish studies that are done by reputable doctors and societies, that use correct scientific method, and that come up with logical conclusions from their testing.
And by the way, we can't look at the Amish community as proof that vaccines cause autism, because they are a people group completely separated from the rest of our society. Yeah, sure, the Amish don't vaccinate, but they also don't watch television. And there actually HAVE been some interesting medical findings that suggest that television watching might possibly have a little something to do with autism.
Not to mention the fact (thanks for reminding me, Dan) that the Amish are from a particular nationality and aren't typically infiltrated by outsiders, so they may not get autism because of genetics.
Mrs. Sara, the articles have nothing to do with agreeing with me. I did not decide that there was a link, I just happen to believe there is. The studies are not tainted because I say so, they are documented to have someone who is paid from pharmeceutical companies performing the studies or paying for the studies. There are studies done by people who are not "swayed" that are legitimate doctors and researchers, but the med journal will not publish those studies. Why? They don't distinguish what is right and wrong in the journals, because the publishers do not know, they publish. They do, however, get their funding from somewhere, can you venture a guess? And if they published something that hurt their funding, do you think they would get more? Those are facts, and have nothing whatsoever to do with me or my opinions. Because I would not publish something that took away my funding, either, if I was a publisher.
And you cannot discount the Amish because of watching tv. That is insane. If you look at mercury poisoning and autism side by side, they are almost identical.
My kids watch a lot of tv, and with 7 kids, wouldn't you think ONE would have autistic symptoms if there was enough of a link that 165 out of 1000 get it? How many of those autistic kids do not have tv in their homes or are not allowed to watch it? How did those Amish children get it if they don't watch tv?
Why don't you see autism in the children not vaccinated? They only time you do, it was traced to mercury in fish or water.
However, all that aside, I have done my research in depth for college papers, and I have found that these things weight so heavily on the side of logic and truth that I could not deny it. If you are not researching, or only reading government sponsored stuff, you are not researching or basing your decision on the best possible information. You have to look at all sides and go with what seems right to you. In the end, there is a truth.
There are other countries how have found (and published in their country) that the immunizations are causing these issues and have stopped giving them to children. Now, why is their research good enough for them, but not for us? Why did their children not get the diseases and drop dead like flies? Why are their children not dying of SIDS and getting autism at rates that blow the mind? Why do their kids not suffer from diabetes and life threatening allergies? This is not just the Amish. And the Amish are a very good group to compare to. Watching tv, and injecting something into your body are very different. You buy that watching tv is going to cause life-long autism, but injecting poisons absolutely does nothing? THAT is absolutely ludicrious.
qtpie,
I think you missed the point of what Sara was saying. She was pointing to the TV studies simply to point out that there is research that shows a greater correlation with the amount of tv kids watch and autism. Notice I said correlation not causation. The difference between those two things makes a lot of difference and should be taken into account when looking at a number of things you have said.
For instance, you stated that autism has increased with the use of mercury in vaccines. but did you take into account that mercury began being used in vaccines in the 1930s and that autism wasn't regularly diagnosed until after the 40s? So there may be a correlation here but that does not equate to causation.
The pharmaceutical companies censoring research into links between autism and mercury is ridiculous. There are certainly companies that would be damaged by such research being published, but the type of information blackout you are describing would have Mao popping out of his grave to take note. There are simply too many medical journals (many of which are funded by medical schools and other organizations not affiliated with drug companies) and to many respectable folks in the medical community for this type of information to be squashed if it had any merit. Not to mention that medical journals are not vanity presses, they are headed by a board of doctors that approve everything that goes into print.
I find it a bit ironic that you are so convinced that drug companies are poisoning the well yet you don't consider that maybe the drug companies are pushing the psychiatric community to over diagnose autism or the increasingly popular spectrum disorders such as Aspergers in order to sell their medication. Autism isn't like Down Syndrome where you can do a chromosome test to prove that it is present. A person is determined to have autism by matching their behaviors to the DSM IV criteria. It is not an exact science and it is far to easy for people to be misdiagnosed (especially if they have multiple diagnoses). Just some food for thought.
oh, and I would like to see some citation of your sources if you wouldn't mind.
QTPies-
Mrs. Sara is simply pointing out that you have to be careful in declaring causation when only a correlation has been determined. You stated that communities that do not vaccinate report fewer instances of autism and other maladies allegedly linked to vaccines. That would indicate that there is a correlation, which definitely warrants further study. However, the scientific community has yet to come to a consensus as to whether causation exists. They need to first isolate other possible factors (TV and genetics are just a few) that our cultures do not share. Personally, I think it's good to be cautious about vaccination, and I see why people are investigating the link between vaccines and autism, but I haven't found any scientific data that solidifies that link. You seem suspicious of medical journals, so could you direct me toward some other print sources that address this topic? (I tend to be wary of internet sources.) What is the best possible information you used to write your college papers? I am really interested in this subject, as I am deciding whether or not my daughter should receive her measles and mumps vaccines. (We've already ruled out rubella b/c of the fetal cell lines) Do doctors who diagnose autism blame the vaccinations? What did your doctor tell you? Which other countries have ceased giving out vaccines to children? Hope you don't mind my incessant questions.
Thanks,
Alli (not Jason)
PS- I also don't think it's ludicrous or insane to wonder whether there are some links between autism and TV watching. As a sister-in-law and teacher to kids with autism, I think it's important to examine all possible causes to this debilitating disorder.
I did give some great links, and the mercola link is a great place to start, he has loads more links. And there are studies in other countries that do agree but the US will not publish them.
I no longer have all my information because I am not in college now and do not have access to the enormous college library and resources they gave me. Even if I could remember them, I do not have access, and could not give access to them. The only thing I can hand over in a comment form is an internet link.
I can tell you that I managed a 4.0 writing these papers with professors who were dead-set against what I believed, and made them very, very leary of their long held beliefs. They most certainly checked my sources to try to give me an F.
It won't take too much research for you to find doctors who have done the research and know the truth but are unable to get their articles published. I have even had a doctor tell me he HAD to encourage vaccines or he would lose his job because of where the money comes from, despite how he feels about vaccines. He needs his job to pay back his schooling. Catch 22.
My current doctor will not look into my son's vaccine injury because of the triple blind studies and what nots, and blah blah, so I have to treat him outside of mainstream doctors. I made much better progress on my own. My son went from not able to read in the 5th grade, with behavior/communication issues, to only one F on his report card and lettering in Varsity swimming in 8th grade. Not with the doctors help. Or with the schools help.
I detoxed him of mercury, removed his mercury fillings, and his symptoms dramatically started to disappear! Tell me there is nothing there? His problems started when a DOCTOR threatened to take my children away from me if I did not get him vaccinated, they "caught him up" and within months he had learning and behavior problems. He was nearly 2, so it was a noticable difference.
It is not ludicrious to think the tv watching causes problems, it is ludicrious to believe in that and think vaccines have nothing to do with it. Or that for some reason it all revolves around me, I must be the reason all this stuff started.
You don't have to agree with me, but show me something NOT from an agency making money off vaccines that is worth looking into or believing. And don't try to belittle me like Mrs. Sara did.
No one is making money by stopping the vaccine companies from injecting poison into babies. The motive is pure.
I don't believe that all the doctors and all the doctors on the journal boards are in a conspiracy. But I know that they have not all done the research, many only know what they are fed (a doctor's words) in med school about vaccines. They are told it is safe, everyone who disagrees is an alarmist fruitcake, and that they have to give them in order to save the world massive disease and heartbreak. Be a hero! They don't know anything else, most have specialties, and rarely is it that specialty. Where is the research coming from for the college classes? Thats right, the research the DRUG companies do and pay to have done. Why would that research be sufficient? It isn't sufficient in other countries, like Japan, and I can't remember what European country, Ireland? Those countries had doctors and researchers do the testing and decided it was NOT safe to immunize infants.
THAT is why I look at those results, they are not biased, they are looking for truth, not a certain result.
I am for delayed vaccination. If you believe strongly that vaccines are good for the world, then keep up with your vaccines. Most adults do not keep up with them. Infants should not be getting them. Their brains and bodies are just growing and developing, why would we mess with that?
Here is a doctor, Donald Miller,who is on a panel to protect us from global disaster, including bioterrorism, and he absolutely insists that children should not be vaccinated before 2. A doctor who has done the research on vaccines is against vaccinating infants. And he publishes articles against it. http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html
Why won't you believe this doctor? He is well respected enough to be a surgeon, a Professor at the University of Washington, and a member of Doctors for Disaster Preparedness. www.donaldmiller.com.
You don't have to believe me, it isn't my child. You should be willing to find the truth when it is your child's health at stake, the truth, not force fed information.
I for one, am very choosy with my information. I don't want it to "agree with me" I want it to be unbiased and truthful. It is better to err on the side of caution when there is doubt. And there is great doubt about vaccines. Does delaying them hurt? Nope. Why would a parent not choose to wait?
Donald Miller is pro-vaccine, by the way, just so noone thinks I chose a doctor who "agrees with me."
Here is a bit of what he has to say:
"Health officials consider a vaccine to be safe if no bad reactions – like seizures, intestinal obstruction, or anaphylaxis – occur acutely. The CDC has not done any studies to assess the long-term effects of its immunization schedule. To do that one must conduct a randomized controlled trial, the lynchpin of evidenced-based medicine, where one group of children is vaccinated on the CDC’s schedule and a control group is not vaccinated. Investigators then follow the two groups for a number of years (not just three to four weeks, as has been done in vaccine safety studies)."
Did you see that? The CDC has not done any evidence based studies to see if there is any long-term problems, including neurologic problems. But the CDC is adding more and more vaccines to your child without doing a study on ONE being safe, but telling you that 15 are safe.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html
Here is a an article in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons [JAPS 2004;9(2):46–52] written by a Neurosurgeon, Russel Baylock. It also has 54 references, if that is enough for people. This is showing how evidence shows overstimulation of the immune system with multiple innoculations can result in Gulf War Syndrom and Autism.
This one is published. Published and backed up.
Qtpies,
I went back and read my comment to try to figure out what exactly it was that I said that made you feel belittled. The only thing I can guess is when I said that something was ludicrous.
Please understand that my intention was not to belittle you, but to challenge your opinion on the matter. Me calling an argument of yours ludicrous is not the same as me calling you as a person ludicrous.
I would hope that you would understand that, as you in turn called my view (or at least what you believe my view to be) ludicrous. I didn't take offense to it, because I understood you to be using rhetoric. But perhaps I was wrong in that assumption.
I'd like to clear up that I never said that "injecting poisons absolutely does nothing." That would, indeed, be ludicrous if that's what I believed. The difference between my opinion on television and your opinion on vaccines is that I can point to the findings of at least one reputable scientific study (done by Cornell University) that show a correlation (not causation, again) between TV watching and autism. You've stated that autism is caused by mercury, but in response to people asking you to cite the actual studies, you've said that the studies haven't been published because of pharmaceutical companies.
I hope you can see why it's hard to follow your argument when you claim that the truth is out there, but it's being covered up.
Thanks for the references. I posted my last comment before I knew you had responded. I'll definitely check out the study you mentioned.
You know, I'm not here to attack you, but to share my opinion. It seems that you're getting really upset about this topic. I understand that you've had a bad experience with vaccines, and I truly am sorry for what you've gone through. Just keep in mind that other people have also had different experiences, and just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're calling you a horrible person.
Ok, don't say I wasn't asked for proof of what I am saying. Here is a link showing monetary connections to articles written refuting the vaccine/autism link.
http://www.safeminds.org/pressroom/press_releases/20040518_AutismAuthorsNetwork.pdf
Here is an article in a med journal about the measles virus in the vaccines being more than coincidentally involved in autism. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12849883
Published article about the Hep B vaccine causing MS, and they said "These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that immunization with the recombinant hepatitis B vaccine is associated with an increased risk of MS"
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/5/838
I have to get back to my kids now, so I'll stop, but I think I've proved my point that vaccines are NOT proven safe, and even doctors admit it. It is not worth it to do it.
Mrs, Sara, the belittling was you saying that I am saying these things are going on "becuase they don't agree with me". That was very insulting and can in no way be taken as anything but belittling. That is what upsets me, not the vaccine topic. You are completely putting me down for saying that there is any monetary connection between studies being rejected by journals. You flat out said I am saying that BECAUSE they do not agree with me, not because it is actually happening. You could have said mentioned the sides of the study without making it a personal judgement. The studies that have been done showing no link have not been done in a scientific way, according to a doctor, and they have also all been done by biased parties. And the ones that have been done correctly, in other countries, are ignored over here. All the published articles I did find are in neuro journals, which peds probably do not read, so they are still sitting there with their heads in the sand. And who gets rich? The Vax makers, who pad the political pockets of the people who make the laws forcing more and more vaccines on children. (follow the trail, you will see that the big drug companies are contributing mightily to politicians, not at all a secret or conspiracy)
I did provide links, I can't provide links to the studies that the US med journals won't publish. I can't. And I don't think mercury alone is the cause of autism, however, mercury poisoning and autism side by side are almost indistinguisable. My son has mercury poisoning.
I have tried googling the information on the studies, but Google does not have the resources of my former college. I had access to college research, including med schools, and many other sources.
Did you know that the vaccine companies are not liable for death or injury? If it is reported by the doctor, and if it is proven, you have to go to VAERs, which is funded by a tax you pay on vaccines, not the drug companies. They get their profit, and no accountability AND are allowed gag orders on law suits so that you, the public, cannot find out what they did wrong. Where is the incentive to do the right thing with vaccines?
http://www.mercola.com/2001/aug/18/vaccine_myths.htm this article has way more information than I can say or put out here, and it is backed up with tons of resources. If you can read all of that all the way through and then still say vaccines are safe and worth the risk, go for it. You've weighed it out and chosen. But don't think those doctors and drug companies and politicians are going to be there for you when something goes wrong. You will be left with the consequences yourself. I chose the consequences I, as a mother, could live with based on the facts that were believable to me, not the ones I wanted to believe. I did not want to believe that I had caused my son's problems. I did not want to believe that I had possibly done harm to my kids. I do not want to believe that this kind of negligence is going on knowingly. But I believe it based on overwhelming evidence.
I really, truly do not believe that if you saw the studies that prove vaccines are causing neurological problems and autoimmune disorders in our children that you would believe it, because you chose to believe that the government is good in this area.
My professor said she could see the truth, but just could not let go of what she has believed and feared in diseases all these years.
I prayed and prayed for the truth, because I do not want to be on a bandwagon in either camp, I want to do the right thing for my children. The Holy Spirit led me away from vaccinating before I had any idea about any of this controversy.
"Mrs, Sara, the belittling was you saying that I am saying these things are going on "becuase they don't agree with me". That was very insulting and can in no way be taken as anything but belittling."
Actually, I can think of a number of ways that this can be taken, all of which aren't belittling. I've told you twice already that I was not trying to attack or belittle you. I think that because you don't know me, you just aren't familiar with my way of speaking, and that's certainly understandable.
I can see that this is an issue on which you are very passionate, and I think that sometimes when we are passionate about something we become hyper-sensitive to criticism. I know because I can be the same way on certain topics. I think you read a little too much into my comment. Perhaps there was a better way I could stated what I was trying to say, and I apologize if it was confusing, but I wasn't trying to belittle you.
As far as assuming that I'd change my mind if I read all the studies you're talking about, you might be right. Then again, it is rather condescending to assume that I've only read what I wanted to read and believed what I wanted to believe on the matter. As a personal policy, I don't ever just take one side of an argument and read that literature and then make my decision (and I certainly don't argue with people on their home turf if I haven't had more than a cursory introduction to the topic). My informed decision is based on a variety of readings, both for and against vaccination.
The bottom line is that I do believe you think you're doing the best for your family, and I can see why you would feel so passionate about this particular topic. I certainly don't harbor any delusions that pharmaceutical companies are fabulously ethical at all times, nor do I think all doctors have pure motives and aren't driven by money in any way. I understand that in this fallen world, we're all subject to temptation and we could all bend our concept of morality in order to gain, financially or otherwise. I just don't happen to think that there's some underlying conspiracy that is keeping the truth hidden, and when I originally confronted your opinion, I was simply trying to point out the problem with your argument.
One final point before I go to bed. You said, "But don't think those doctors and drug companies and politicians are going to be there for you when something goes wrong. You will be left with the consequences yourself."
To that, I'd say that with incidences of adverse reactions to vaccines, though there are genuine cases, the chances are very, very low that I or any of my children will ever experience a true adverse reaction. So it's not a "WHEN something goes wrong" situation, but an "IF something should happen to go wrong." I just wouldn't want someone to read that statement and think that vaccines are harming more people than they're helping.
Good night! :)
qtpies,
First of all I think you need to stop digging trenches. So far I have only seen one person comment on this post that i would call "pro-vaccine." I know that i personally am not saying that vaccines are all perfectly safe and, as my wife noted at the beginning of this discussions, will not be giving my children certain vaccines (due to moral reasons) and perhaps not any depending on what our research brings up.
My gripe with the things you have said really has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with you, but rather on the over simplified, illogical, and/or presumptuous nature of your comments. This would include one of your most recent comments where you state "I really, truly do not believe that if you saw the studies that prove vaccines are causing neurological problems and autoimmune disorders in our children that you would believe it, because you chose to believe that the government is good in this area." Where are Earth are you getting that from? As a pro-life, disabilities rights advocate, and social worker I have a hard time believing the government is any area, especially when it comes to medical/psychiatric issues. Just as you have assumed us all to be pro-vaccine, you have painted us to be sheep for government feeding on whatever information Uncle Sam throws out to us.
The fact of the matter is, I am not even saying your conclusion is wrong, just that your argument is flawed. So that being said let me address the links you provided.
First off, the Denmark article. It makes an interesting point in connecting the authors to a company that produces vaccines but it falls short in a few areas. 1) You can create similar charts showing connections with just about any group of professionals in such a specific field. 2) They do not address any of the groups findings. Yes, they may have been bias, but that doesn't necessarily mean their study was false. If I worked for a paper company and wrote an article about how my company was the best, then i would certainly be bias, but that would not means that my article was automatically false.
Next, the Mercola website. I'll have to admit I didn't read this one because it required me to give my email address for a newsletter. But even what I saw had me concerned. His website seems to be dedicated to selling his line of health books and his endorsement is not from any sort of medical professional or agency but Mariel Hemingway. This doesn't mean he is wrong, but it certainly doesn't help his credibility.
Finally, the measle antibody article. This would actually have been interesting to read, but the link was just for an abstract. it did have one interesting thing to say though. The last sentence read, "Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus, which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus reactivation."
What the author is saying is that there is a biological factor that is causing an abnormal immune reaction, not the vaccine itself (although this certainly doesn't imply that vaccines have no place in this reaction).
This last article is actually much more in line with what most autism researchers believe which is that autism is for the most part a genetic disorder that is effected by environmental factors. Here is a recent article from the National Autistic Society
http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=115&a=3227
Before I conclude i just want to state again that no one is disputing that mercury is horrible stuff. I believe you when you say that your son had mercury poisoning and agree that it should be avoided at all cost. But try to be more even handed when it comes to the autism thing and realize that throwing yourself full force into a theory that is not yet conclusive is more damaging to the autistic community than helpful.
Thanks for all of the links you provided. I'm not sure you've adequately proved your point about autism and vaccines, but you've certainly given me some homework to do, and you've definitely reminded us of the important fact that one must seriously consider whether the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. I think you make your strongest point when you say, "It is better to err on the side of caution when there is doubt. And there is great doubt about vaccines. Does delaying them hurt? Nope. Why would a parent not choose to wait?" Do you know why the medical community recommends getting children vaccinated before the age of two? I'm going to ask my ped the next time I talk to him, but I'm interested in hearing some thoughts from the other side. I understand that babies are particularly susceptible to acquiring life long disabilities if they are exposed to the diseases we vaccinate against, but it seems that they are also the age group most likely to experience nasty side effects from the vaccines. I wonder if I could find some statistical data comparing the risks of vaccinating vs not vaccinating children under 2. Vaccination seems to be an issue that really depends on a communal attitude from Americans. It only works if people do it, right? On one hand, I want to be a conscientious citizen and do my part to make our nation a safer place to live, but I do want to make sure my kids are safe. Do I forgo the vaccinations because I want MY kids to be safe (To hell with the rest of the country!)? Or do I expose my children to potentially dangerous substances for the greater good? Arg. It makes my head spin. I guess I just need to decide how much risk is really involved in vaccination.
I started looking at some of the links you mentioned, and I had a few notes about them.
I took a look at the PubMed abstract, and I found a more current Canadian study that refutes the link between Thimerosal in the MMR Vaccine and PDD (including autism) It states that instances of children with PDD were actually higher among children who weren't vaccinated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16818529&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
I also found an article stating that the autism rate is increasing in Japan despite the ban on the MMR Vaccine.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076.html
My research is by no means thorough or conclusive, but I did want to point out that there are some questions about the information you provided. Please don't take this to be a personal attack. I am interested in seeking truth in an objective manner. My initial inclination is to believe that there are some risks to vaccines, but that there is no significant link between vaccines and autism. However, I am willing to be proven wrong if the evidence supports it. :) I'm going to head over to Valpo U's library to see if I can access the full text versions of some of the abstracts you mentioned, and I plan on examining all of the links you provided. Thanks again for being willing to provide information for a topic about which you are obviously passionate.
Alli
I can't really address all this right now, I have to get my dd to her drivers test.
But, I saw that article on the Japanese children getting autism despite the ban, however, did you see that the article says that still got the shot, it was just not all three in one, they still got all three vaccines. I really don't think that proves that you can't get it from one of the components in the MMR. To prove it to me, you would have to NOT give any of them and watch those children for 7 years or more.
Babies are actually not hyper susceptible, as far as I can tell, to getting life-long disabilities from the diseases. If the adult/teen population were vaccinated at 95% there would still be less incidence of the disease going around. But, the diseases are still going to make through rounds no matter what. For example, in a 100% immunized community, the measles hit hard. Vaccines only have an 85% efficacy rate. Now, that is still better than nothing.
Several of the vaccines have no place with children, such as hep B, which is an adult problem, when children catch it, you do not know it becuase they get cold symptoms and then life-long immunity, but in an adult it is serious. Ruebella is the same way, though not a problem for all adults, just women of child bearing years, for everyone else it is not serious at all.
Whooping cough and meningitis are the only two my doctor is nervous about me not getting, and he is pro-vaccine.
I will check into the Canadian report, because I do not believe that at all. How did they conduct the testing? You can skew results all you want and call it a test. It didn't look like a medical report but a government report to encourage conformity. I'll read it today, though. (sorry, I tend to dismiss government statistics, especially in controlling countries)
Oh, and I'm sorry if I come across as There is no doubt at all that autism is caused by a certain vaccine, because I don't know that, I am beyond sure it is related to the amount of vaccines shoved in our children, and I know there is a link with mercury, there has to be if you look at the symptoms, however, what I do believe is that the increasing amounts of shots we give our kids over the decades coincides with the ever increasing amounts of disorders in our children.
In 20-30 years, whenever it happens, I know people are going to look back and wonder how we did not see this stuff.
Ugh! I have to go!
So, I have been sitting back and letting you guys battle this one out. And you have done a superb job of it, I might say. I have been following the links that you all have posted and appreciate everyone's passion towards this subject. The commonality that we all have is that we want what is best for our children and we are seeking truth. Sometimes the truth is harder to find than it should be.
QTPie-
In response to what you said about the Whooping Cough and Meningitis. At our last Ped. appt. my Dr. said that Whooping Cough was on the rise again, so she really recommends getting that vaccine. She heard my concerns about vaccines in general and did not pressure us one way or the other, which I appreciated. We are up to date on Pertussis anyway, so no worries!
QTPies
I saw your comment about the Canadian study, and I was a bit concerned. You seemed busy, and that's cool- I'm not expecting immediate responses. I hope you do plan on reading it at some point though, because I think it would be bad scholarship to dismiss an article without giving it a thorough, critical read-through. Also, the Japanese article to which I referred didn't mention that they still received the vaccines... It is entirely possible that is the case; however you must be referring to a different article. On that note, what is your official position on vaccines? Are you OK with them after 2, or do you reject them altogether?
Also, could you clarify your position on the link between autism and vaccines for me? I think I understand your position to be that the mercury in thimerosal which is found on some vaccines can cause autism; therefore vaccines without thimerosal would be OK as far as risk of contracting autism is concerned. (That's not taking into account the other health risks involved with vaccines) Also, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about mercury poisoning and autism being almost indistinguishable. I'm not familiar with the symptoms of mercury poisoning. And your child's official diagnosis was autism? Or mercury poisoning? And did a doctor ever link your son's problems to the vaccine, or was that a connection that you made? I was having trouble following what you were saying earlier and I wanted to be clear on what we are debating. Please take your time answering my questions if you are really busy. I'll continue checking this discussion for the next few days, and if you still don't get a chance to respond and would like to continue the discussion, you can always reach me through the comments section on my blog. Peace.
Both my children are on the Autism spectrum and both of my children have had all their vaccinations. I personally do not believe that their getting immunizations had anything to do with their autism. Especially because my oldest son has been genetically tested and a fragmented chromosomal abnormality was identifed. On my husband's side of the family all three grandchildren, my 2 sons, and my sister in law's son are on the spectrum. So there definately seems to be genetic issues for us, as it would be highly unlikely for all three grandchildren to be Autistic randomly.
I do believe that since the year 2000, immunizations were no longer stored in mercury, but I'm not 100% sure about the date it started, since Jack was born in 2004, it would mean that he has had no exposure to vaccines stored in mercury, and is developed autism.
These are just my personal observations and I don't judge or have any negative opinions of parents who decide not to vaccinate.
Chris
http://artzeechris.blogspot.com
http://www.squidoo.com/AutismAwarenessNOW
http://www.cafepress.com/theperfectgift
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